This isn't an IFR related question, but I don't see an r.a group devoted
to instruction. I just received the May/June issue of Aviator's Guide
and they make an interesting claim on page 38. In the third paragraph
they say that it is illegal for a non-instructor pilot to fly in the
right seat with a non-pilot in the left seat. I've never thought about
doing this, but never considered that it could be illegal. Can anyone
here confirm this, preferably with a reference to the approriate FAR?
I've never come across an FAR that addressed this before.


Matt

Horse feathers. Is this a US publication?

Bob Gardner

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> This isn't an IFR related question, but I don't see an r.a group devoted
> to instruction. I just received the May/June issue of Aviator's Guide
> and they make an interesting claim on page 38. In the third paragraph
> they say that it is illegal for a non-instructor pilot to fly in the
> right seat with a non-pilot in the left seat. I've never thought about
> doing this, but never considered that it could be illegal. Can anyone
> here confirm this, preferably with a reference to the approriate FAR?
> I've never come across an FAR that addressed this before.
>
>
> Matt
>

Bob Gardner wrote:
> Horse feathers. Is this a US publication?
>
> Bob Gardner
>
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>This isn't an IFR related question, but I don't see an r.a group devoted
>>to instruction. I just received the May/June issue of Aviator's Guide
>>and they make an interesting claim on page 38. In the third paragraph
>>they say that it is illegal for a non-instructor pilot to fly in the
>>right seat with a non-pilot in the left seat. I've never thought about
>>doing this, but never considered that it could be illegal. Can anyone
>>here confirm this, preferably with a reference to the approriate FAR?
>>I've never come across an FAR that addressed this before.
>>
>>
>>Matt

Yes, it is. It is published by J&S Media, Port Washington, NY. The
author of the article containing the statement is Amy Laboda.

Matt

In article >,
Matt Whiting > wrote:
>they say that it is illegal for a non-instructor pilot to fly in the
>right seat with a non-pilot in the left seat.

I've seen that in insurance but not the FARs.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

>>
In the third paragraph
they say that it is illegal for a non-instructor pilot to fly in the
right seat with a non-pilot in the left seat.
<<

In the United States, there is no regulation as far as I know that dictates
what seat the Pilot In Command must utilize, except that it must be a control
seat, which I take to mean a seat with controls. Nothing I am aware of
prevents a pilot from flying solo in the right seat, the front seat, the back
seat, or even a passenger seat (with strings attached to the yoke).

I believe the author is incorrect.

Jose


--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

That's a surprise...she is sharper than that.

Bob Gardner

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Bob Gardner wrote:
> > Horse feathers. Is this a US publication?
> >
> > Bob Gardner
> >
> > "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>This isn't an IFR related question, but I don't see an r.a group devoted
> >>to instruction. I just received the May/June issue of Aviator's Guide
> >>and they make an interesting claim on page 38. In the third paragraph
> >>they say that it is illegal for a non-instructor pilot to fly in the
> >>right seat with a non-pilot in the left seat. I've never thought about
> >>doing this, but never considered that it could be illegal. Can anyone
> >>here confirm this, preferably with a reference to the approriate FAR?
> >>I've never come across an FAR that addressed this before.
> >>
> >>
> >>Matt
>
> Yes, it is. It is published by J&S Media, Port Washington, NY. The
> author of the article containing the statement is Amy Laboda.
>
> Matt
>

Matt Whiting > wrote in news:4092D130.409
@chilitech.net:

> This isn't an IFR related question, but I don't see an r.a group
devoted
> to instruction. I just received the May/June issue of Aviator's Guide
> and they make an interesting claim on page 38. In the third paragraph
> they say that it is illegal for a non-instructor pilot to fly in the
> right seat with a non-pilot in the left seat. I've never thought about
> doing this, but never considered that it could be illegal. Can anyone
> here confirm this, preferably with a reference to the approriate FAR?
> I've never come across an FAR that addressed this before.
>
>
> Matt
>

I am not familiar with Aviator's Guide, but this is pure BS. There is no
regulation regarding flying from the right seat. When I was training for
my instructor certificate, I flew all the time from the right seat, both
with passengers and solo. You have to occupy a seat that has full
controls, but no one cares (except perhaps the insurance company) which
seat that is.

Teacherjh wrote:
> In the United States, there is no regulation as far as I know that
dictates
> what seat the Pilot In Command must utilize, except that it must be a
control
> seat, which I take to mean a seat with controls.

To which FAR are you referring?

Hilton

Ben Jackson wrote:
> In article >,
> Matt Whiting > wrote:
>
>>they say that it is illegal for a non-instructor pilot to fly in the
>>right seat with a non-pilot in the left seat.
>
>
> I've seen that in insurance but not the FARs.
>

That would be as important as the FARs in today's society.


Matt

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in
news:N8Dkc.5925$I%1.488195@attbi_s51:

>> Yes, it is. It is published by J&S Media, Port Washington, NY. The
>> author of the article containing the statement is Amy Laboda.

> That's a surprise...she is sharper than that.

My thought exactly. Surely she knows better than that. Was there *any*
other context that might change things. Such as not talking about the USA?
Or talking about aircraft without dual controls?

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------

>>
> except that it must be a control
> seat, which I take to mean a seat with controls.

To which FAR are you referring?
<<

Oh, you're gonna make me look it up. I find:
91.105 (flight crewmembers at stations). It does not mention "control seat"; I
must have misremembered that. But it does imply that it must be a "station",
by which I take it they mean a seat designed for and intended for a pilot or
appropriate crewmember. I don't think the FAA would go for the idea that the
passenger seat in the third row of a saratoga consititues a "station".

Jose




--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Teacherjh wrote:
> >>
> > except that it must be a control
> > seat, which I take to mean a seat with controls.
>
> To which FAR are you referring?
> <<
>
> Oh, you're gonna make me look it up. I find:
> 91.105 (flight crewmembers at stations). It does not mention "control
seat"; I
> must have misremembered that. But it does imply that it must be a
"station",
> by which I take it they mean a seat designed for and intended for a pilot
or
> appropriate crewmember. I don't think the FAA would go for the idea that
the
> passenger seat in the third row of a saratoga consititues a "station".

Jose,

OK, I was looking at 91.105 too, but thought there may have been an
additional requirement somewhere else. Since it does not say "control
seat", I believe the PIC therefore is not required to be at a control seat.
Heavy iron pilots - correct me if I'm wrong, but the PIC of a 747 can ACT
and LOG PIC while sleeping in his bed. Am I correct?

Hilton

"Hilton" > wrote
> Heavy iron pilots - correct me if I'm wrong, but the PIC of a
> 747 can ACT and LOG PIC while sleeping in his bed. Am I correct?


You are correct!

Bob Moore

>From: Anthony Acri )
>Subject: Right Seat Flying

>Date: 2001-12-11 03:21:43 PST

>Does anybody know if there is any regulations about flying from the
right
>seat? Would like to flyi from the right seat while taking some
people up
>for sightseeing. Have been flying from the right when I have been
doing my
>instructors courses.

>Thanks

As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the left
seat? what purpose would it serve ?

There are regulations pertaining to this, and if you are indeed doing
your instructors rating you should have gained a reasonable knowledge
of the FAR's and furthermore have an understaning of CRM.

as we are all aware, many GA aircraft are equipped with "dual"
controls and instumentation, however, depending on the aircraft the
left seat is configured as the primary control station, with
reduced/limited access from the right seat, limited further if a body
is in that seat, limited even further if it is occupied by a non
pilot.

so again, what purpose would it serve to position a non pilot in the
left seat and place yourself in the right seat, why would you want to
limit access to full control of the aircraft.

you may be able to find a loophole in the FAR's, renters policy or
insurance requirements to allow you to do this "legally", though even
posing the question indicates a complete failure to understand CRM and
lack of professionalism. if i found one of my pilots acting in this
manner he would never be in one of my cockpits again forthwith.

James M. Knox wrote:
> "Bob Gardner" > wrote in
> news:N8Dkc.5925$I%1.488195@attbi_s51:
>
>
>>>Yes, it is. It is published by J&S Media, Port Washington, NY. The
>>>author of the article containing the statement is Amy Laboda.
>>
>
>>That's a surprise...she is sharper than that.
>
>
> My thought exactly. Surely she knows better than that. Was there *any*
> other context that might change things. Such as not talking about the USA?
> Or talking about aircraft without dual controls?

Nothing obvious. I sent an email to the editor and he forwarded it to
Amy and cc'd me.

I checked their web site (http://www.aviatorsguide.com/), but they have
yet to post the latest issue online, so you all can't read the full
article. I'm not sure why I'm receiving this publication as I didn't
subscribe to it, but this is the second issue I've received.

Matt

Hilton wrote:
> Teacherjh wrote:
>
>>>except that it must be a control
>>>seat, which I take to mean a seat with controls.
>>
>>To which FAR are you referring?
>><<
>>
>>Oh, you're gonna make me look it up. I find:
>>91.105 (flight crewmembers at stations). It does not mention "control
>
> seat"; I
>
>>must have misremembered that. But it does imply that it must be a
>
> "station",
>
>>by which I take it they mean a seat designed for and intended for a pilot
>
> or
>
>>appropriate crewmember. I don't think the FAA would go for the idea that
>
> the
>
>>passenger seat in the third row of a saratoga consititues a "station".
>
>
> Jose,
>
> OK, I was looking at 91.105 too, but thought there may have been an
> additional requirement somewhere else. Since it does not say "control
> seat", I believe the PIC therefore is not required to be at a control seat.
> Heavy iron pilots - correct me if I'm wrong, but the PIC of a 747 can ACT
> and LOG PIC while sleeping in his bed. Am I correct?
>
> Hilton
>
>

I believe this applies only to the ATP certficate, which a 747 captain
certainly would hold.


Matt

running with scissors wrote:
>>From: Anthony Acri )
>>Subject: Right Seat Flying
>
>
>>Date: 2001-12-11 03:21:43 PST
>
>
>
>>Does anybody know if there is any regulations about flying from the
>
> right
>
>>seat? Would like to flyi from the right seat while taking some
>
> people up
>
>>for sightseeing. Have been flying from the right when I have been
>
> doing my
>
>>instructors courses.
>
>
>>Thanks
>
>
> As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the left
> seat? what purpose would it serve ?

You might be helping a student pilot work on some procedures in between
their lessons. I went back and re-read Amy's article and she did say
student pilot, however, I don't see why it matters whether the left seat
occupant is a student pilot or a non-pilot. I've never come across an
FAR that says I can't fly from the right seat, no matter who is in the
left seat or whether it is empty.


Matt

"running with scissors" > wrote in
message om...
> As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the left
> seat? what purpose would it serve ?

A few that come to mind...

1) For aerial photography flights in aircraft with only left opening windows
2) Returning to base with an inop PTT button on the left yoke
3) attaching a yoke mounted GPS so that it doesn't block the instruments
directly in front of you on the panel
4) Demo-ing an aircraft to a potential buyer (who may not even be rated yet)

running with scissors wrote:

> As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the left
> seat? what purpose would it serve ?
>
> There are regulations pertaining to this, and if you are indeed doing
> your instructors rating you should have gained a reasonable knowledge
> of the FAR's and furthermore have an understaning of CRM.
>
> as we are all aware, many GA aircraft are equipped with "dual"
> controls and instumentation, however, depending on the aircraft the
> left seat is configured as the primary control station, with
> reduced/limited access from the right seat, limited further if a body
> is in that seat, limited even further if it is occupied by a non
> pilot.
>
> so again, what purpose would it serve to position a non pilot in the
> left seat and place yourself in the right seat, why would you want to
> limit access to full control of the aircraft.
>
> you may be able to find a loophole in the FAR's, renters policy or
> insurance requirements to allow you to do this "legally", though even
> posing the question indicates a complete failure to understand CRM and
> lack of professionalism. if i found one of my pilots acting in this
> manner he would never be in one of my cockpits again forthwith.

You make it sound like some incredibly dangerous activity,
but CFI's fly from the right seat all the time and are expected
to be able to take over from that seat even if the student
has gotten the plane into a spin or is in an unusual attitude
in IMC. Why the terror about flying from the right?

Reasons you might want to sit on the right include allowing
the passenger to practice flying (not loggable toward a rating
if you're not a CFI, but that may not be important to you or
the passenger), and to practice for your CFI exam.

If you don't feel competent to fly from the right or feel like
there are important instruments or controls that you don't have
access to, then you shouldn't do it. But viewing it as a "loophole"
or "unprofessional" seems really over the top.

--
David Rind

Brad Z wrote:

> A few that come to mind...

Another reason has to do with homebuilts. I have a COZY MKIV, set up
for a left side PIC. Two weeks ago, I checked out a builder who has
just finished his aircraft, will be flying from the left seat, and
wanted some experience before doing his first flight. I checked myself
out in the right seat a few days before, and then gave him 1.5 hours in
the plane in the left seat, along with 6 TO/landings.

While the main instruments and pitch trim switches are on the left,
flying the COZY from the right seat is pretty much a non-event.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin
http://marc.zeitlin.home.comcast.net/
http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright (c) 2004

"David Rind" > wrote in message
...
> running with scissors wrote:
>
> > As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the left
> > seat? what purpose would it serve ?
> >
> > There are regulations pertaining to this, and if you are indeed doing
> > your instructors rating you should have gained a reasonable knowledge
> > of the FAR's and furthermore have an understaning of CRM.
> >
> > as we are all aware, many GA aircraft are equipped with "dual"
> > controls and instumentation, however, depending on the aircraft the
> > left seat is configured as the primary control station, with
> > reduced/limited access from the right seat, limited further if a body
> > is in that seat, limited even further if it is occupied by a non
> > pilot.
> >
> > so again, what purpose would it serve to position a non pilot in the
> > left seat and place yourself in the right seat, why would you want to
> > limit access to full control of the aircraft.
> >
> > you may be able to find a loophole in the FAR's, renters policy or
> > insurance requirements to allow you to do this "legally", though even
> > posing the question indicates a complete failure to understand CRM and
> > lack of professionalism. if i found one of my pilots acting in this
> > manner he would never be in one of my cockpits again forthwith.
>
> You make it sound like some incredibly dangerous activity,
> but CFI's fly from the right seat all the time and are expected
> to be able to take over from that seat even if the student
> has gotten the plane into a spin or is in an unusual attitude
> in IMC. Why the terror about flying from the right?
>
> Reasons you might want to sit on the right include allowing
> the passenger to practice flying (not loggable toward a rating
> if you're not a CFI, but that may not be important to you or
> the passenger), and to practice for your CFI exam.
>
> If you don't feel competent to fly from the right or feel like
> there are important instruments or controls that you don't have
> access to, then you shouldn't do it. But viewing it as a "loophole"
> or "unprofessional" seems really over the top.
>
> --
> David Rind
>
>

I had to land our club's 172 from the right seat once, when my newly
licensed pilot friend couldn't quite get a crosswind landing down. I think I
was lucky. I was pretty familiar with the plane, but had never flown from
the right seat before. We now have a Cherokee 180 and I think I'd like to
get some right seat time for various reasons (the one above, to introduce a
friend to flying, or any number of emergency reasons). I think it would just
take some safe practice with a pilot in the left seat in case things just
weren't working right.

(running with scissors) wrote in
om:

>>From: Anthony Acri )
>>Subject: Right Seat Flying
>
>>Date: 2001-12-11 03:21:43 PST
>
>>Does anybody know if there is any regulations about flying from the
> right
>>seat? Would like to flyi from the right seat while taking some
> people up
>>for sightseeing. Have been flying from the right when I have been
> doing my
>>instructors courses.
>
>>Thanks
>
> As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the left
> seat? what purpose would it serve ?
>
> There are regulations pertaining to this, and if you are indeed doing
> your instructors rating you should have gained a reasonable knowledge
> of the FAR's and furthermore have an understaning of CRM.

Please cite the paragraph number of this regulation that pertains to right
seat flying.


>
> as we are all aware, many GA aircraft are equipped with "dual"
> controls and instumentation, however, depending on the aircraft the
> left seat is configured as the primary control station, with
> reduced/limited access from the right seat, limited further if a body
> is in that seat, limited even further if it is occupied by a non
> pilot.

Which aircraft are you talking about? Most small GA aircraft (skyhawks,
cherokees, arrows, archers, skylanes, centurians...) do not make a
distinction between left and right seat. Some aircraft do say that (the
Katana DA-20), but they are the exception rather than the rule.


>
> so again, what purpose would it serve to position a non pilot in the
> left seat and place yourself in the right seat, why would you want to
> limit access to full control of the aircraft.

The left seat provides full access to the controls in most small GA
aircraft.

>
> you may be able to find a loophole in the FAR's, renters policy or
> insurance requirements to allow you to do this "legally", though even
> posing the question indicates a complete failure to understand CRM and
> lack of professionalism. if i found one of my pilots acting in this
> manner he would never be in one of my cockpits again forthwith.
>

You don't need a loop hole. It is perfectly legal to fly from the right
seat unless the manufacturer or insurance company specifies differently.
Sounds like you own a flying business, hence your reference to 'my pilots'.
It is your business if you want to set a company policy not to fly solo
from the right seat. But expecting everyone follow your understanding of
CRM displays poorly on your understanding of how the GA world operates.

(Teacherjh) wrote in
:

> In the United States, there is no regulation as far as I
> know that dictates what seat the Pilot In Command must
> utilize, except that it must be a control seat, which I
> take to mean a seat with controls. Nothing I am aware of
> prevents a pilot from flying solo in the right seat, the
> front seat, the back seat, or even a passenger seat (with
> strings attached to the yoke).

Some aircraft have such limitations. The aircraft I usually fly
(BH412 and SK76) limit solo flight (or flight with one pilot) to
the right seat. If such a requirement is in the flight manual
limitations section, it's a legal requirement.

--
Regards,

Stan

Matt Whiting > wrote in
:

> I believe this applies only to the ATP certficate, which a
> 747 captain certainly would hold.

No, it applies to any pilot with a certificate other than
recreational, piloting an aircraft which requires more than one
pilot, either by type certificate or the regulations under which
it is operating. Part 61.51 (e) (iii).

--
Regards,

Stan

(running with scissors) wrote

> you may be able to find a loophole in the FAR's, renters policy or
> insurance requirements to allow you to do this "legally", though even
> posing the question indicates a complete failure to understand CRM and
> lack of professionalism. if i found one of my pilots acting in this
> manner he would never be in one of my cockpits again forthwith.

As if your posting name didn't say enough about you, your entire post
says that you are either very inexperienced or lacking in confidence
in yourself and other pilots. It's been years since I have flown from
the left seat of a general aviation aircraft. A few years back when I
was flying 12-13 year old "Young Eagles", I never sat in the left seat,
and as a matter-of-fact, very seldom touched the controls.

The CFI who did my last Flight Review was amused when I flew the entire
flight including the instrument portion from the right seat of a C-172.

Bob Moore

Must be a lawyer's interpetation!

--

Pete Brown, CFI
Carolina Flight
Davidson County Airport

"Brad Z" > wrote in message news:<ZMUkc.7446$_41.391899@attbi_s02>...
> "running with scissors" > wrote in
> message om...
> > As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the left
> > seat? what purpose would it serve ?
>
> A few that come to mind...
>
> 1) For aerial photography flights in aircraft with only left opening windows
> 2) Returning to base with an inop PTT button on the left yoke
> 3) attaching a yoke mounted GPS so that it doesn't block the instruments
> directly in front of you on the panel
> 4) Demo-ing an aircraft to a potential buyer (who may not even be rated yet)

the poster stated it was in providing a sightseeing service and
placing a non flying passenger in the right seat.

David Rind > wrote in message >...
> running with scissors wrote:
>
> > As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the left
> > seat? what purpose would it serve ?
> >
> > There are regulations pertaining to this, and if you are indeed doing
> > your instructors rating you should have gained a reasonable knowledge
> > of the FAR's and furthermore have an understaning of CRM.
> >
> > as we are all aware, many GA aircraft are equipped with "dual"
> > controls and instumentation, however, depending on the aircraft the
> > left seat is configured as the primary control station, with
> > reduced/limited access from the right seat, limited further if a body
> > is in that seat, limited even further if it is occupied by a non
> > pilot.
> >
> > so again, what purpose would it serve to position a non pilot in the
> > left seat and place yourself in the right seat, why would you want to
> > limit access to full control of the aircraft.
> >
> > you may be able to find a loophole in the FAR's, renters policy or
> > insurance requirements to allow you to do this "legally", though even
> > posing the question indicates a complete failure to understand CRM and
> > lack of professionalism. if i found one of my pilots acting in this
> > manner he would never be in one of my cockpits again forthwith.
>
> You make it sound like some incredibly dangerous activity,
> but CFI's fly from the right seat all the time and are expected
> to be able to take over from that seat even if the student
> has gotten the plane into a spin or is in an unusual attitude
> in IMC. Why the terror about flying from the right?
>
> Reasons you might want to sit on the right include allowing
> the passenger to practice flying (not loggable toward a rating
> if you're not a CFI, but that may not be important to you or
> the passenger), and to practice for your CFI exam.
>
> If you don't feel competent to fly from the right or feel like
> there are important instruments or controls that you don't have
> access to, then you shouldn't do it. But viewing it as a "loophole"
> or "unprofessional" seems really over the top.

umm read it again there is no statement of "terror" at all.

the question i asked is what is the reason for placing a passenger in
the left seat. any CFI who placed a student with zero experience or
no ability in aircraft in a position of spin recovery or unusual
attitude in IMC would hardly be considered responsible.

the poster stated that it was a sightseeing trip and no mention of
instruction was made. besides, he also stated that he was not an
instructor.

corrct if a pilot does not feel comfortable in flying from the right
or has limited access from the right he shouldnt do it. which is what
i stated. many GA aircraft have the brakes located on the left only,
or instrumentation advantages from the left, or even fuel selectors on
the left wall. the question i asked was what would be the benefit and
why would a pilot be willing to fly an aircraft with a non flying
passenger in the left seat and potentially limit access to aircraft
controls. unless there is justifiable reasoning (and depending on the
aircraft type and equipment specification) it would be unprofessional
to do so.

Matt Whiting > wrote in message >...
> running with scissors wrote:
> >>From: Anthony Acri )
> >>Subject: Right Seat Flying
> >
> >
> >>Date: 2001-12-11 03:21:43 PST
> >
> >
> >
> >>Does anybody know if there is any regulations about flying from the
> >
> > right
> >
> >>seat? Would like to flyi from the right seat while taking some
> >
> > people up
> >
> >>for sightseeing. Have been flying from the right when I have been
> >
> > doing my
> >
> >>instructors courses.
> >
> >
> >>Thanks
> >
> >
> > As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the left
> > seat? what purpose would it serve ?
>
> You might be helping a student pilot work on some procedures in between
> their lessons. I went back and re-read Amy's article and she did say
> student pilot, however, I don't see why it matters whether the left seat
> occupant is a student pilot or a non-pilot. I've never come across an
> FAR that says I can't fly from the right seat, no matter who is in the
> left seat or whether it is empty.
>
>
> Matt


matt there was no mention of instruction. the poster stated it was
for a sightseeing flight and he was not a rated instructor.

"Steven Barnes" > wrote in message >...
> "David Rind" > wrote in message
> ...
> > running with scissors wrote:
> >
> > > As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the left
> > > seat? what purpose would it serve ?
> > >
> > > There are regulations pertaining to this, and if you are indeed doing
> > > your instructors rating you should have gained a reasonable knowledge
> > > of the FAR's and furthermore have an understaning of CRM.
> > >
> > > as we are all aware, many GA aircraft are equipped with "dual"
> > > controls and instumentation, however, depending on the aircraft the
> > > left seat is configured as the primary control station, with
> > > reduced/limited access from the right seat, limited further if a body
> > > is in that seat, limited even further if it is occupied by a non
> > > pilot.
> > >
> > > so again, what purpose would it serve to position a non pilot in the
> > > left seat and place yourself in the right seat, why would you want to
> > > limit access to full control of the aircraft.
> > >
> > > you may be able to find a loophole in the FAR's, renters policy or
> > > insurance requirements to allow you to do this "legally", though even
> > > posing the question indicates a complete failure to understand CRM and
> > > lack of professionalism. if i found one of my pilots acting in this
> > > manner he would never be in one of my cockpits again forthwith.
> >
> > You make it sound like some incredibly dangerous activity,
> > but CFI's fly from the right seat all the time and are expected
> > to be able to take over from that seat even if the student
> > has gotten the plane into a spin or is in an unusual attitude
> > in IMC. Why the terror about flying from the right?
> >
> > Reasons you might want to sit on the right include allowing
> > the passenger to practice flying (not loggable toward a rating
> > if you're not a CFI, but that may not be important to you or
> > the passenger), and to practice for your CFI exam.
> >
> > If you don't feel competent to fly from the right or feel like
> > there are important instruments or controls that you don't have
> > access to, then you shouldn't do it. But viewing it as a "loophole"
> > or "unprofessional" seems really over the top.
> >
> > --
> > David Rind
> >
> >
>
> I had to land our club's 172 from the right seat once, when my newly
> licensed pilot friend couldn't quite get a crosswind landing down. I think I
> was lucky. I was pretty familiar with the plane, but had never flown from
> the right seat before. We now have a Cherokee 180 and I think I'd like to
> get some right seat time for various reasons (the one above, to introduce a
> friend to flying, or any number of emergency reasons). I think it would just
> take some safe practice with a pilot in the left seat in case things just
> weren't working right.


mm and i have landed an aircraft from the right seat myself many a
time, with a rated pilot in the left seat. the poster stated it was a
sightseeing flight and the passenger was a non pilot.

in the situation you mention there was a rated pilot in the left seat.

Andrew Sarangan > wrote in message >...
> (running with scissors) wrote in
> om:
>
> >>From: Anthony Acri )
> >>Subject: Right Seat Flying
>
> >>Date: 2001-12-11 03:21:43 PST
>
> >>Does anybody know if there is any regulations about flying from the
> right
> >>seat? Would like to flyi from the right seat while taking some
> people up
> >>for sightseeing. Have been flying from the right when I have been
> doing my
> >>instructors courses.
>
> >>Thanks
> >
> > As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the left
> > seat? what purpose would it serve ?
> >
> > There are regulations pertaining to this, and if you are indeed doing
> > your instructors rating you should have gained a reasonable knowledge
> > of the FAR's and furthermore have an understaning of CRM.
>
> Please cite the paragraph number of this regulation that pertains to right
> seat flying.

read the FAR's and the AFM.

>
>
> >
> > as we are all aware, many GA aircraft are equipped with "dual"
> > controls and instumentation, however, depending on the aircraft the
> > left seat is configured as the primary control station, with
> > reduced/limited access from the right seat, limited further if a body
> > is in that seat, limited even further if it is occupied by a non
> > pilot.
>
> Which aircraft are you talking about? Most small GA aircraft (skyhawks,
> cherokees, arrows, archers, skylanes, centurians...) do not make a
> distinction between left and right seat. Some aircraft do say that (the
> Katana DA-20), but they are the exception rather than the rule.

many GA aircraft are configured with a preference for access to
systems/controls from the left seat, as well you know. seeing as you
want an example, many aircraft have the main wheel braking on the left
side only with steering on the right.

>
>
> >
> > so again, what purpose would it serve to position a non pilot in the
> > left seat and place yourself in the right seat, why would you want to
> > limit access to full control of the aircraft.
>
> The left seat provides full access to the controls in most small GA
> aircraft.

uh huh. which doesnt answer my question.

>
> >
> > you may be able to find a loophole in the FAR's, renters policy or
> > insurance requirements to allow you to do this "legally", though even
> > posing the question indicates a complete failure to understand CRM and
> > lack of professionalism. if i found one of my pilots acting in this
> > manner he would never be in one of my cockpits again forthwith.
> >
>
> You don't need a loop hole.

when the aircraft departs the runway left right or off the end
following touchdown because a non flying passenger was in the left
seat and didnt know how to brake or had his feet on the brakes, or
blows a main because a non flying passenger had his toes on the brakes
on landing, or stamped on the brakes after being asked to brake, you
better start reading the FAR's, the AFM, the renters agreement, the
insurance smallprint, because a few people wont be too happy.

> It is perfectly legal to fly from the right

i didnt say it wasnt.

> seat unless the manufacturer or insurance company specifies differently.

exactly.

> Sounds like you own a flying business, hence your reference to 'my pilots'.
> It is your business if you want to set a company policy not to fly solo
> from the right seat.

there is no reason for it, only detriment.

But expecting everyone follow your understanding of
> CRM displays poorly on your understanding of how the GA world operates.

nope. CRM is CRM. i have a pretty good understanding of how the GA
world operates thanks.

Bob Moore > wrote in message >...
> (running with scissors) wrote
>
> > you may be able to find a loophole in the FAR's, renters policy or
> > insurance requirements to allow you to do this "legally", though even
> > posing the question indicates a complete failure to understand CRM and
> > lack of professionalism. if i found one of my pilots acting in this
> > manner he would never be in one of my cockpits again forthwith.
>
> As if your posting name didn't say enough about you, your entire post
> says that you are either very inexperienced or lacking in confidence
> in yourself and other pilots. It's been years since I have flown from
> the left seat of a general aviation aircraft. A few years back when I
> was flying 12-13 year old "Young Eagles", I never sat in the left seat,
> and as a matter-of-fact, very seldom touched the controls.
>
> The CFI who did my last Flight Review was amused when I flew the entire
> flight including the instrument portion from the right seat of a C-172.
>
> Bob Moore

you are missing the whole point of the post. the original poster
stated that it was sightseeing flight and it was a passenger, zero
experience, who would be in the left seat and the poster was not a
rated instructor.

if you want to get into character assassination, then go ahead. call
me what you want.

running with scissors wrote:
> Andrew Sarangan > wrote in message >...
>
(running with scissors) wrote in
om:
>>
>>
>>>>From: Anthony Acri )
>>>>Subject: Right Seat Flying
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Date: 2001-12-11 03:21:43 PST
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Does anybody know if there is any regulations about flying from the
>>
>> right
>>
>>>>seat? Would like to flyi from the right seat while taking some
>>
>> people up
>>
>>>>for sightseeing. Have been flying from the right when I have been
>>
>> doing my
>>
>>>>instructors courses.
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Thanks
>>>
>>>As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the left
>>>seat? what purpose would it serve ?
>>>
>>>There are regulations pertaining to this, and if you are indeed doing
>>>your instructors rating you should have gained a reasonable knowledge
>>>of the FAR's and furthermore have an understaning of CRM.
>>
>>Please cite the paragraph number of this regulation that pertains to right
>>seat flying.
>
>
> read the FAR's and the AFM.
>
You are the one saying there is a rule when everyone else says
otherwise.. Show us the regulation.. chapter and verse, or conceed that
it doesnt exist.

Dave

>>
the question i asked is what is the reason for placing a passenger in
the left seat. any CFI who placed a student with zero experience or
no ability in aircraft in a position of spin recovery or unusual
attitude in IMC would hardly be considered responsible.
<<

Geez... what is the reason for placing a passenger in the RIGHT seat? I mean,
it has fully functioning controls, the passenger could easily place the
aircraft in a position of spin recovery or unucual attitude in IMC.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

running with scissors wrote:
> Matt Whiting > wrote in message >...
>
>>running with scissors wrote:
>>
>>>>From: Anthony Acri )
>>>>Subject: Right Seat Flying
>>>
>>>
>>>>Date: 2001-12-11 03:21:43 PST
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Does anybody know if there is any regulations about flying from the
>>>
>>>right
>>>
>>>
>>>>seat? Would like to flyi from the right seat while taking some
>>>
>>>people up
>>>
>>>
>>>>for sightseeing. Have been flying from the right when I have been
>>>
>>>doing my
>>>
>>>
>>>>instructors courses.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>>As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the left
>>>seat? what purpose would it serve ?
>>
>>You might be helping a student pilot work on some procedures in between
>>their lessons. I went back and re-read Amy's article and she did say
>>student pilot, however, I don't see why it matters whether the left seat
>>occupant is a student pilot or a non-pilot. I've never come across an
>>FAR that says I can't fly from the right seat, no matter who is in the
>>left seat or whether it is empty.
>>
>>
>>Matt
>
>
>
> matt there was no mention of instruction. the poster stated it was
> for a sightseeing flight and he was not a rated instructor.

I am the original poster in this thread and I made no mention of
sightseeing.

Matt

running with scissors wrote:
> Bob Moore > wrote in message >...
>
>>(running with scissors) wrote
>>
>>
>>>you may be able to find a loophole in the FAR's, renters policy or
>>>insurance requirements to allow you to do this "legally", though even
>>>posing the question indicates a complete failure to understand CRM and
>>>lack of professionalism. if i found one of my pilots acting in this
>>>manner he would never be in one of my cockpits again forthwith.
>>
>>As if your posting name didn't say enough about you, your entire post
>>says that you are either very inexperienced or lacking in confidence
>>in yourself and other pilots. It's been years since I have flown from
>>the left seat of a general aviation aircraft. A few years back when I
>>was flying 12-13 year old "Young Eagles", I never sat in the left seat,
>>and as a matter-of-fact, very seldom touched the controls.
>>
>>The CFI who did my last Flight Review was amused when I flew the entire
>>flight including the instrument portion from the right seat of a C-172.
>>
>>Bob Moore
>
>
> you are missing the whole point of the post. the original poster
> stated that it was sightseeing flight and it was a passenger, zero
> experience, who would be in the left seat and the poster was not a
> rated instructor.

You've now made this incorrect assertion at least three times. You may
want to review the thread before making such bold statements.

Matt

See #1 again.

"running with scissors" > wrote in
message m...
> "Brad Z" > wrote in message
news:<ZMUkc.7446$_41.391899@attbi_s02>...
> > "running with scissors" > wrote
in
> > message om...
> > > As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the left
> > > seat? what purpose would it serve ?
> >
> > A few that come to mind...
> >
> > 1) For aerial photography flights in aircraft with only left opening
windows
> > 2) Returning to base with an inop PTT button on the left yoke
> > 3) attaching a yoke mounted GPS so that it doesn't block the instruments
> > directly in front of you on the panel
> > 4) Demo-ing an aircraft to a potential buyer (who may not even be rated
yet)
>
> the poster stated it was in providing a sightseeing service and
> placing a non flying passenger in the right seat.

running with scissors wrote:

> Andrew Sarangan > wrote in message
> >...
>
>> (running with scissors)
>> wrote in om:
>>>
>>> As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the
>>> left seat? what purpose would it serve ?
>>>
>>> There are regulations pertaining to this, and if you are indeed
>>> doing your instructors rating you should have gained a reasonable
>>> knowledge of the FAR's and furthermore have an understaning of
>>> CRM.
>>
>> Please cite the paragraph number of this regulation that pertains
>> to right seat flying.
>
>
> read the FAR's and the AFM.

In other words, you can't come up with a regulatory reference.

running with scissors wrote:

> Bob Moore > wrote in message >...
>
>>(running with scissors) wrote
>>
>>
>>>you may be able to find a loophole in the FAR's, renters policy or
>>>insurance requirements to allow you to do this "legally", though even
>>>posing the question indicates a complete failure to understand CRM and
>>>lack of professionalism. if i found one of my pilots acting in this
>>>manner he would never be in one of my cockpits again forthwith.
>>
>>As if your posting name didn't say enough about you, your entire post
>>says that you are either very inexperienced or lacking in confidence
>>in yourself and other pilots. It's been years since I have flown from
>>the left seat of a general aviation aircraft. A few years back when I
>>was flying 12-13 year old "Young Eagles", I never sat in the left seat,
>>and as a matter-of-fact, very seldom touched the controls.
>>
>>The CFI who did my last Flight Review was amused when I flew the entire
>>flight including the instrument portion from the right seat of a C-172.
>>
>>Bob Moore
>
>
> you are missing the whole point of the post. the original poster
> stated that it was sightseeing flight and it was a passenger, zero
> experience, who would be in the left seat and the poster was not a
> rated instructor.

Leaving aside the fact that the original poster made no such statement,
what do you suppose those Young Eagle flights were if not sightseeing?

How about an instructor whose instructor certificate has just expired but
who is more comfortable in the right seat?

Rod
"running with scissors" > wrote in
message om...
> >From: Anthony Acri )
> >Subject: Right Seat Flying
>
> >Date: 2001-12-11 03:21:43 PST
>
> >Does anybody know if there is any regulations about flying from the
> right
> >seat? Would like to flyi from the right seat while taking some
> people up
> >for sightseeing. Have been flying from the right when I have been
> doing my
> >instructors courses.
>
> >Thanks
>
> As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the left
> seat? what purpose would it serve ?
>
> There are regulations pertaining to this, and if you are indeed doing
> your instructors rating you should have gained a reasonable knowledge
> of the FAR's and furthermore have an understaning of CRM.
>
> as we are all aware, many GA aircraft are equipped with "dual"
> controls and instumentation, however, depending on the aircraft the
> left seat is configured as the primary control station, with
> reduced/limited access from the right seat, limited further if a body
> is in that seat, limited even further if it is occupied by a non
> pilot.
>
> so again, what purpose would it serve to position a non pilot in the
> left seat and place yourself in the right seat, why would you want to
> limit access to full control of the aircraft.
>
> you may be able to find a loophole in the FAR's, renters policy or
> insurance requirements to allow you to do this "legally", though even
> posing the question indicates a complete failure to understand CRM and
> lack of professionalism. if i found one of my pilots acting in this
> manner he would never be in one of my cockpits again forthwith.

"Brad Z" > wrote in message news:<OE6lc.9936$Ia6.1204345@attbi_s03>...
> See #1 again.

oops ! my bad.

>
> "running with scissors" > wrote in
> message m...
> > "Brad Z" > wrote in message
> news:<ZMUkc.7446$_41.391899@attbi_s02>...
> > > "running with scissors" > wrote
> in
> > > message om...
> > > > As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the left
> > > > seat? what purpose would it serve ?
> > >
> > > A few that come to mind...
> > >
> > > 1) For aerial photography flights in aircraft with only left opening
> windows
> > > 2) Returning to base with an inop PTT button on the left yoke
> > > 3) attaching a yoke mounted GPS so that it doesn't block the instruments
> > > directly in front of you on the panel
> > > 4) Demo-ing an aircraft to a potential buyer (who may not even be rated
> yet)
> >
> > the poster stated it was in providing a sightseeing service and
> > placing a non flying passenger in the right seat.

Matt Whiting > wrote in message >...
> running with scissors wrote:
> > Matt Whiting > wrote in message >...
> >
> >>running with scissors wrote:
> >>
> >>>>From: Anthony Acri )
> >>>>Subject: Right Seat Flying
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Date: 2001-12-11 03:21:43 PST
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Does anybody know if there is any regulations about flying from the
> >>>
> >>>right
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>seat? Would like to flyi from the right seat while taking some
> >>>
> >>>people up
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>for sightseeing. Have been flying from the right when I have been
> >>>
> >>>doing my
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>instructors courses.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Thanks
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the left
> >>>seat? what purpose would it serve ?
> >>
> >>You might be helping a student pilot work on some procedures in between
> >>their lessons. I went back and re-read Amy's article and she did say
> >>student pilot, however, I don't see why it matters whether the left seat
> >>occupant is a student pilot or a non-pilot. I've never come across an
> >>FAR that says I can't fly from the right seat, no matter who is in the
> >>left seat or whether it is empty.
> >>
> >>
> >>Matt
> >
> >
> >
> > matt there was no mention of instruction. the poster stated it was
> > for a sightseeing flight and he was not a rated instructor.
>
> I am the original poster in this thread and I made no mention of
> sightseeing.
>
> Matt

Quote

From: Anthony Acri )
Subject: Right Seat Flying

Date: 2001-12-11 03:21:43 PST



Does anybody know if there is any regulations about flying from the right
seat? Would like to flyi from the right seat while taking some people up
for sightseeing. Have been flying from the right when I have been doing my
instructors courses.

Thanks


end quote

Matt Whiting > wrote in message >...
> running with scissors wrote:
> > Bob Moore > wrote in message >...
> >
> >>(running with scissors) wrote
> >>
> >>
> >>>you may be able to find a loophole in the FAR's, renters policy or
> >>>insurance requirements to allow you to do this "legally", though even
> >>>posing the question indicates a complete failure to understand CRM and
> >>>lack of professionalism. if i found one of my pilots acting in this
> >>>manner he would never be in one of my cockpits again forthwith.
> >>
> >>As if your posting name didn't say enough about you, your entire post
> >>says that you are either very inexperienced or lacking in confidence
> >>in yourself and other pilots. It's been years since I have flown from
> >>the left seat of a general aviation aircraft. A few years back when I
> >>was flying 12-13 year old "Young Eagles", I never sat in the left seat,
> >>and as a matter-of-fact, very seldom touched the controls.
> >>
> >>The CFI who did my last Flight Review was amused when I flew the entire
> >>flight including the instrument portion from the right seat of a C-172.
> >>
> >>Bob Moore
> >
> >
> > you are missing the whole point of the post. the original poster
> > stated that it was sightseeing flight and it was a passenger, zero
> > experience, who would be in the left seat and the poster was not a
> > rated instructor.
>
> You've now made this incorrect assertion at least three times. You may
> want to review the thread before making such bold statements.
>
> Matt

quote

From: Anthony Acri )
Subject: Right Seat Flying

Date: 2001-12-11 03:21:43 PST



Does anybody know if there is any regulations about flying from the right
seat? Would like to flyi from the right seat while taking some people up
for sightseeing. Have been flying from the right when I have been doing my
instructors courses.

Thanks

end quote

Rich Ahrens > wrote in message m>...
> running with scissors wrote:
>
> > Bob Moore > wrote in message >...
> >
> >>(running with scissors) wrote
> >>
> >>
> >>>you may be able to find a loophole in the FAR's, renters policy or
> >>>insurance requirements to allow you to do this "legally", though even
> >>>posing the question indicates a complete failure to understand CRM and
> >>>lack of professionalism. if i found one of my pilots acting in this
> >>>manner he would never be in one of my cockpits again forthwith.
> >>
> >>As if your posting name didn't say enough about you, your entire post
> >>says that you are either very inexperienced or lacking in confidence
> >>in yourself and other pilots. It's been years since I have flown from
> >>the left seat of a general aviation aircraft. A few years back when I
> >>was flying 12-13 year old "Young Eagles", I never sat in the left seat,
> >>and as a matter-of-fact, very seldom touched the controls.
> >>
> >>The CFI who did my last Flight Review was amused when I flew the entire
> >>flight including the instrument portion from the right seat of a C-172.
> >>
> >>Bob Moore
> >
> >
> > you are missing the whole point of the post. the original poster
> > stated that it was sightseeing flight and it was a passenger, zero
> > experience, who would be in the left seat and the poster was not a
> > rated instructor.
>
> Leaving aside the fact that the original poster made no such statement,
> what do you suppose those Young Eagle flights were if not sightseeing?


quote

From: Anthony Acri )
Subject: Right Seat Flying

Date: 2001-12-11 03:21:43 PST



Does anybody know if there is any regulations about flying from the right
seat? Would like to flyi from the right seat while taking some people up
for sightseeing. Have been flying from the right when I have been doing my
instructors courses.

Thanks

end quote

Rich Ahrens > wrote in message m>...
> running with scissors wrote:
>
> > Andrew Sarangan > wrote in message
> > >...
> >
> >> (running with scissors)
> >> wrote in om:
> >>>
> >>> As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the
> >>> left seat? what purpose would it serve ?
> >>>
> >>> There are regulations pertaining to this, and if you are indeed
> >>> doing your instructors rating you should have gained a reasonable
> >>> knowledge of the FAR's and furthermore have an understaning of
> >>> CRM.
> >>
> >> Please cite the paragraph number of this regulation that pertains
> >> to right seat flying.
> >
> >
> > read the FAR's and the AFM.
>
> In other words, you can't come up with a regulatory reference.

135.113/135.115 & read under part 23/25m and i admit to not adding the
reference to renters policy and insurance

Check the date genius, that post was from 2001.


"running with scissors" > wrote in
message m...
> Matt Whiting > wrote in message
>...
> > running with scissors wrote:
> > > Matt Whiting > wrote in message
>...
> > >
> > >>running with scissors wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>>From: Anthony Acri )
> > >>>>Subject: Right Seat Flying
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>Date: 2001-12-11 03:21:43 PST
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>Does anybody know if there is any regulations about flying from the
> > >>>
> > >>>right
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>seat? Would like to flyi from the right seat while taking some
> > >>>
> > >>>people up
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>for sightseeing. Have been flying from the right when I have been
> > >>>
> > >>>doing my
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>instructors courses.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>Thanks
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the left
> > >>>seat? what purpose would it serve ?
> > >>
> > >>You might be helping a student pilot work on some procedures in
between
> > >>their lessons. I went back and re-read Amy's article and she did say
> > >>student pilot, however, I don't see why it matters whether the left
seat
> > >>occupant is a student pilot or a non-pilot. I've never come across an
> > >>FAR that says I can't fly from the right seat, no matter who is in the
> > >>left seat or whether it is empty.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Matt
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > matt there was no mention of instruction. the poster stated it was
> > > for a sightseeing flight and he was not a rated instructor.
> >
> > I am the original poster in this thread and I made no mention of
> > sightseeing.
> >
> > Matt
>
> Quote
>
> From: Anthony Acri )
> Subject: Right Seat Flying
>
> Date: 2001-12-11 03:21:43 PST
>
>
>
> Does anybody know if there is any regulations about flying from the right
> seat? Would like to flyi from the right seat while taking some people up
> for sightseeing. Have been flying from the right when I have been doing
my
> instructors courses.
>
> Thanks
>
>
> end quote

There was no reference to the sightseeing flight being for profit. Hence
that is part 91. Hence the part 135 regulations do not apply.

Thank you for playing.
Dave

running with scissors wrote:

> Rich Ahrens > wrote in message m>...
>
>>running with scissors wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Andrew Sarangan > wrote in message
>...
>>>
>>>
(running with scissors)
>>>>wrote in om:
>>>>
>>>>>As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the
>>>>>left seat? what purpose would it serve ?
>>>>>
>>>>>There are regulations pertaining to this, and if you are indeed
>>>>>doing your instructors rating you should have gained a reasonable
>>>>>knowledge of the FAR's and furthermore have an understaning of
>>>>>CRM.
>>>>
>>>>Please cite the paragraph number of this regulation that pertains
>>>>to right seat flying.
>>>
>>>
>>>read the FAR's and the AFM.
>>
>>In other words, you can't come up with a regulatory reference.
>
>
> 135.113/135.115 & read under part 23/25m and i admit to not adding the
> reference to renters policy and insurance

Nice try. Even if this did apply to part 135, no one said anything about
manipulation of the controls by the passenger, hence 135.115 doesn't apply.
And if 135.113 did apply, the passenger couldn't ride in the right seat
either, since it is a pilot's seat.

"running with scissors" > wrote in
message om...
> Rich Ahrens > wrote in message
m>...
> > running with scissors wrote:
> >
> > > Andrew Sarangan > wrote in message
> > > >...
> > >
> > >> (running with scissors)
> > >> wrote in om:
> > >>>
> > >>> As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the
> > >>> left seat? what purpose would it serve ?
> > >>>
> > >>> There are regulations pertaining to this, and if you are indeed
> > >>> doing your instructors rating you should have gained a reasonable
> > >>> knowledge of the FAR's and furthermore have an understaning of
> > >>> CRM.
> > >>
> > >> Please cite the paragraph number of this regulation that pertains
> > >> to right seat flying.
> > >
> > >
> > > read the FAR's and the AFM.
> >
> > In other words, you can't come up with a regulatory reference.
>
> 135.113/135.115 & read under part 23/25m and i admit to not adding the
> reference to renters policy and insurance

"Brad Z" > writes:
> "running with scissors" > wrote

> > As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the left
> > seat? what purpose would it serve ?
>
> A few that come to mind...
>
> 1) For aerial photography flights in aircraft with only left opening windows
> 2) Returning to base with an inop PTT button on the left yoke
> 3) attaching a yoke mounted GPS so that it doesn't block the instruments
> directly in front of you on the panel
> 4) Demo-ing an aircraft to a potential buyer (who may not even be rated yet)

Or as happened when on a pleasure flight with my cousin --
he'd spent years as a military instructor pilot and was at
the time an airline second officer and things didn't "feel
right" from the left seat.

When I was working on my CFI rating I woudl put my student pilot in
the left seat because I didn't have brakes on the right side. The FSDO
said the person working the brakes didn't need any certification (of
course I was responsible for ensuring he knew how to work them). I did
not try to give him instruction.

BTW: I had to write a letter to my insurance company. If you don't
notify them that you are flying left seat and you put someone else in
the left, they will likely believe the left seat was the flying pilot.
My agent said the warning letter fixes this.



(Teacherjh) wrote in message >...
> >>
> In the third paragraph
> they say that it is illegal for a non-instructor pilot to fly in the
> right seat with a non-pilot in the left seat.
> <<
>
> In the United States, there is no regulation as far as I know that dictates
> what seat the Pilot In Command must utilize, except that it must be a control
> seat, which I take to mean a seat with controls. Nothing I am aware of
> prevents a pilot from flying solo in the right seat, the front seat, the back
> seat, or even a passenger seat (with strings attached to the yoke).
>
> I believe the author is incorrect.
>
> Jose

"Brad Z" > wrote in message news:<Kphlc.14276$_41.910388@attbi_s02>...
> Check the date genius, that post was from 2001.
>
>

well genius yourself. was the original post not cut and pasted into
the post ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????

Dave S > wrote in message et>...
> There was no reference to the sightseeing flight being for profit. Hence
> that is part 91. Hence the part 135 regulations do not apply.
>
> Thank you for playing.
> Dave

oh a childish retort A-La Tarver.

read 135.1 /135.3

>
> running with scissors wrote:
>
> > Rich Ahrens > wrote in message m>...
> >
> >>running with scissors wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Andrew Sarangan > wrote in message
> >...
> >>>
> >>>
> (running with scissors)
> >>>>wrote in om:
> >>>>
> >>>>>As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the
> >>>>>left seat? what purpose would it serve ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>There are regulations pertaining to this, and if you are indeed
> >>>>>doing your instructors rating you should have gained a reasonable
> >>>>>knowledge of the FAR's and furthermore have an understaning of
> >>>>>CRM.
> >>>>
> >>>>Please cite the paragraph number of this regulation that pertains
> >>>>to right seat flying.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>read the FAR's and the AFM.
> >>
> >>In other words, you can't come up with a regulatory reference.
> >
> >
> > 135.113/135.115 & read under part 23/25m and i admit to not adding the
> > reference to renters policy and insurance

"Brad Z" > wrote in message news:<2ajlc.14391$TD4.1830334@attbi_s01>...
> Nice try. Even if this did apply to part 135, no one said anything about
> manipulation of the controls by the passenger, hence 135.115 doesn't apply.
> And if 135.113 did apply, the passenger couldn't ride in the right seat
> either, since it is a pilot's seat.

read 135.1/135.3 and the AFM.

>
> "running with scissors" > wrote in
> message om...
> > Rich Ahrens > wrote in message
> m>...
> > > running with scissors wrote:
> > >
> > > > Andrew Sarangan > wrote in message
> > > > >...
> > > >
> > > >> (running with scissors)
> > > >> wrote in om:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the
> > > >>> left seat? what purpose would it serve ?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> There are regulations pertaining to this, and if you are indeed
> > > >>> doing your instructors rating you should have gained a reasonable
> > > >>> knowledge of the FAR's and furthermore have an understaning of
> > > >>> CRM.
> > > >>
> > > >> Please cite the paragraph number of this regulation that pertains
> > > >> to right seat flying.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > read the FAR's and the AFM.
> > >
> > > In other words, you can't come up with a regulatory reference.
> >
> > 135.113/135.115 & read under part 23/25m and i admit to not adding the
> > reference to renters policy and insurance

(Robert M. Gary) wrote in message >...
> When I was working on my CFI rating I woudl put my student pilot in
> the left seat because I didn't have brakes on the right side. The FSDO
> said the person working the brakes didn't need any certification (of
> course I was responsible for ensuring he knew how to work them). I did
> not try to give him instruction.
>
> BTW: I had to write a letter to my insurance company. If you don't
> notify them that you are flying left seat and you put someone else in
> the left, they will likely believe the left seat was the flying pilot.
> My agent said the warning letter fixes this.

exactly. spot on.

>
>
>
> (Teacherjh) wrote in message >...
> > >>
> > In the third paragraph
> > they say that it is illegal for a non-instructor pilot to fly in the
> > right seat with a non-pilot in the left seat.
> > <<
> >
> > In the United States, there is no regulation as far as I know that dictates
> > what seat the Pilot In Command must utilize, except that it must be a control
> > seat, which I take to mean a seat with controls. Nothing I am aware of
> > prevents a pilot from flying solo in the right seat, the front seat, the back
> > seat, or even a passenger seat (with strings attached to the yoke).
> >
> > I believe the author is incorrect.
> >
> > Jose

I'm not aware of any FARs specifically prohibiting it. However if something
were to happen, and you hadn't had some training in the right seat, they
could
get you with the old "careless and reckless" part if they thought flying
from over
there contributed.



"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> This isn't an IFR related question, but I don't see an r.a group devoted
> to instruction. I just received the May/June issue of Aviator's Guide
> and they make an interesting claim on page 38. In the third paragraph
> they say that it is illegal for a non-instructor pilot to fly in the
> right seat with a non-pilot in the left seat. I've never thought about
> doing this, but never considered that it could be illegal. Can anyone
> here confirm this, preferably with a reference to the approriate FAR?
> I've never come across an FAR that addressed this before.
>
>
> Matt
>

(running with scissors)
wrote:

>Does anybody know if there is any regulations about flying from the right
>seat?

You can sit in any crewmember seat you want unless there are stated
limitations in the limitations section of the POH, Owner's Manual,
TCDS, or any other FAA approved placards, etc.to the contrary.

running with scissors wrote:
> Matt Whiting > wrote in message >...
>
>>running with scissors wrote:
>>
>>>Bob Moore > wrote in message >...
>>>
>>>
>>>>(running with scissors) wrote
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>you may be able to find a loophole in the FAR's, renters policy or
>>>>>insurance requirements to allow you to do this "legally", though even
>>>>>posing the question indicates a complete failure to understand CRM and
>>>>>lack of professionalism. if i found one of my pilots acting in this
>>>>>manner he would never be in one of my cockpits again forthwith.
>>>>
>>>>As if your posting name didn't say enough about you, your entire post
>>>>says that you are either very inexperienced or lacking in confidence
>>>>in yourself and other pilots. It's been years since I have flown from
>>>>the left seat of a general aviation aircraft. A few years back when I
>>>>was flying 12-13 year old "Young Eagles", I never sat in the left seat,
>>>>and as a matter-of-fact, very seldom touched the controls.
>>>>
>>>>The CFI who did my last Flight Review was amused when I flew the entire
>>>>flight including the instrument portion from the right seat of a C-172.
>>>>
>>>>Bob Moore
>>>
>>>
>>>you are missing the whole point of the post. the original poster
>>>stated that it was sightseeing flight and it was a passenger, zero
>>>experience, who would be in the left seat and the poster was not a
>>>rated instructor.
>>
>>You've now made this incorrect assertion at least three times. You may
>>want to review the thread before making such bold statements.
>>
>>Matt
>
>
> quote
>
> From: Anthony Acri )
> Subject: Right Seat Flying
>
> Date: 2001-12-11 03:21:43 PST
>
>
>
> Does anybody know if there is any regulations about flying from the right
> seat? Would like to flyi from the right seat while taking some people up
> for sightseeing. Have been flying from the right when I have been doing my
> instructors courses.
>
> Thanks
>
> end quote

That wasn't the "original post." Is this a hard concept to understand?

Matt

Matt Whiting wrote:
> running with scissors wrote:
>
>>> From: Anthony Acri )
>>> Subject: Right Seat Flying
>>
>>
>>
>>> Date: 2001-12-11 03:21:43 PST
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Does anybody know if there is any regulations about flying from the
>>
>>
>> right
>>
>>> seat? Would like to flyi from the right seat while taking some
>>
>>
>> people up
>>
>>> for sightseeing. Have been flying from the right when I have been
>>
>>
>> doing my
>>
>>> instructors courses.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the left
>> seat? what purpose would it serve ?
>
>
> You might be helping a student pilot work on some procedures in between
> their lessons. I went back and re-read Amy's article and she did say
> student pilot, however, I don't see why it matters whether the left seat
> occupant is a student pilot or a non-pilot. I've never come across an
> FAR that says I can't fly from the right seat, no matter who is in the
> left seat or whether it is empty.

I heard back from Amy. As I stated above, she was referring
specifically to a student pilot and apparently the "sole manipulator"
rule prohibits a non-instructor pilot from allowing a student pilot to
manipulate the controls as this would constitute the student pilot
carrying a passenger. However, I don't see why this would matter which
seat you were sitting in. If this is illegal, seems it would be as
illegal to have the student in the right seat. It also seems odd that
you can let a non-student handle the controls and be legal, but can't
let a student pilot legally fly when you are in the airplane.

I would have posted Amy's email here, but she didn't respond to my
request for permission to do so and I don't consider it good etiquette
to post an email sent to me without the author's OK.


Matt

Matt Whiting wrote:
> I heard back from Amy. As I stated above, she was referring
> specifically to a student pilot and apparently the "sole manipulator"
> rule prohibits a non-instructor pilot from allowing a student pilot to
> manipulate the controls as this would constitute the student pilot
> carrying a passenger. However, I don't see why this would matter which
> seat you were sitting in. If this is illegal, seems it would be as
> illegal to have the student in the right seat. It also seems odd that
> you can let a non-student handle the controls and be legal, but can't
> let a student pilot legally fly when you are in the airplane.

That, of course, is even crazier. There is no rule that prevents
a non-instructor pilot from letting someone else manipulate the
controls, or even takeoff and land the plane. The "sole manipulator"
rule applies to logging time (and even with that there was some
odd letter from the FAA implying that if there were no one else
on board who could possibly be PIC, you could log the time that
a passenger was manipulating the controls).

A student isn't "carrying a passenger" if he or she manipulates
the controls when someone else is PIC. The PIC is responsible
for the plane and the passenger no matter who is at the controls.

--
David Rind

David Rind wrote:
> Matt Whiting wrote:
>
>> I heard back from Amy. As I stated above, she was referring
>> specifically to a student pilot and apparently the "sole manipulator"
>> rule prohibits a non-instructor pilot from allowing a student pilot to
>> manipulate the controls as this would constitute the student pilot
>> carrying a passenger. However, I don't see why this would matter
>> which seat you were sitting in. If this is illegal, seems it would be
>> as illegal to have the student in the right seat. It also seems odd
>> that you can let a non-student handle the controls and be legal, but
>> can't let a student pilot legally fly when you are in the airplane.
>
>
> That, of course, is even crazier. There is no rule that prevents
> a non-instructor pilot from letting someone else manipulate the
> controls, or even takeoff and land the plane. The "sole manipulator"
> rule applies to logging time (and even with that there was some
> odd letter from the FAA implying that if there were no one else
> on board who could possibly be PIC, you could log the time that
> a passenger was manipulating the controls).
>
> A student isn't "carrying a passenger" if he or she manipulates
> the controls when someone else is PIC. The PIC is responsible
> for the plane and the passenger no matter who is at the controls.

The FAA isn't always logical. I got a third email from Amy and she said
an acquaintance of hers was a student pilot and went up with another
pilot (not an instructor) and was flying in the left seat. The FAA
caught wind of this and made the claim that the student was acting as
PIC because they were the sole manipulator of the controls and was
seated in the left seat which is traditionally the seat occupied by the
PIC. Since another person was in the airplane at the time, the student
lost their certificate for 120 days for carrying a passenger illegally.

She said this was challenged and was upheld in court. I don't know all
the details and am not going to send Amy a 4th email, but I have no
reason to doubt what she's saying. I've read enough stories about FAA
actions and NTSB appeals to know that logic seems often absent in these
proceedings.


Matt

>>
I've read enough stories about FAA
actions and NTSB appeals to know that logic seems often absent in these
proceedings.
<<

Then applying logic (or any other kind of reasoning for that matter) to this
question is also pointless.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Teacherjh wrote:
> I've read enough stories about FAA
> actions and NTSB appeals to know that logic seems often absent in these
> proceedings.
> <<
>
> Then applying logic (or any other kind of reasoning for that matter) to this
> question is also pointless.

That is why I initially was trying to find an FAR related to it
mattering which seat you were in! :-)


Matt

Matt Whiting wrote:
> The FAA isn't always logical. I got a third email from Amy and she said
> an acquaintance of hers was a student pilot and went up with another
> pilot (not an instructor) and was flying in the left seat. The FAA
> caught wind of this and made the claim that the student was acting as
> PIC because they were the sole manipulator of the controls and was
> seated in the left seat which is traditionally the seat occupied by the
> PIC. Since another person was in the airplane at the time, the student
> lost their certificate for 120 days for carrying a passenger illegally.
>
> She said this was challenged and was upheld in court. I don't know all
> the details and am not going to send Amy a 4th email, but I have no
> reason to doubt what she's saying. I've read enough stories about FAA
> actions and NTSB appeals to know that logic seems often absent in these
> proceedings.
>
>
> Matt

The notion that a student pilot can't handle the controls
from the left seat, but an unrated passenger can seems
beyond even FAA illogic. Similarly, the notion that
it would be okay if the student were in the right seat, but
a problem from the left seat seems completely crazy.

You could construct scenarios in which I could imagine them
going after a student, though. I suppose if a student owned
a tailwheel plane and was signed off to fly it, and asked me
to go up for a ride, given that I am not capable of being PIC
for that plane, its possible the FAA might go after the student
for carrying a passenger. And since there would be no legal
PIC on the plane, I guess the FAA might decide that given that
the student was the sole manipulator of the controls and sitting
in the "typical" PIC seat that they would go after the student's
license rather than mine.

I'm going to guess that it was some scenario of this sort where
there was no legal PIC despite a pilot and a student pilot being
in the plane, and they used the seat position plus who was
handling the controls to decide who to prosecute. If so, that's
very different from "you can't allow a student pilot to fly
from the left seat if you are not a CFI."

--
David Rind

David Rind wrote:

> The notion that a student pilot can't handle the controls
> from the left seat, but an unrated passenger can seems
> beyond even FAA illogic. Similarly, the notion that
> it would be okay if the student were in the right seat, but
> a problem from the left seat seems completely crazy.

My guess is that this was just part of a collection of evidence trying to
establish the pilot's intent. I know nothing about this particular case,
but let's assume that you have the following:

1. There are two people in the plane.
2. The student pilot owns the plane.
3. The other occupant is a licensed private pilot, but not an instructor.
4. The other occupant's logbook shows that he has never been PIC of this
plane before.
5. The other occupant is not on the insurance for the plane.

Now, imagine that you're an investigator, and your job is to decide the
student pilot's actual intent. Obviously, there's nothing illegal about
flying from the right seat, but when you put that together with the other
evidence, it might be enough to convince you that the student pilot was, in
fact, intending to fly as PIC in the left seat.

This is purely hypothetical, of course, since I don't know the details of
the actual case, but if something like this did happen, it would be a gross
overreaction to say that the FAA had ruled that flying from the right seat
was illegal. It's similar to a case where an accused burgler was seen
driving slowly past your house the day before a robbery -- there's nothing
illegal about driving slowly past a house, but together with other evidence
(such as fingerprints, lack of alibi, or possession of some stolen
property), it can help to convince a judge or jury that the accused person
is actually guilty.


All the best,


David

running with scissors wrote:

> Rich Ahrens > wrote in message m>...
>
>>running with scissors wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Bob Moore > wrote in message >...
>>>
>>>
>>>>(running with scissors) wrote
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>you may be able to find a loophole in the FAR's, renters policy or
>>>>>insurance requirements to allow you to do this "legally", though even
>>>>>posing the question indicates a complete failure to understand CRM and
>>>>>lack of professionalism. if i found one of my pilots acting in this
>>>>>manner he would never be in one of my cockpits again forthwith.
>>>>
>>>>As if your posting name didn't say enough about you, your entire post
>>>>says that you are either very inexperienced or lacking in confidence
>>>>in yourself and other pilots. It's been years since I have flown from
>>>>the left seat of a general aviation aircraft. A few years back when I
>>>>was flying 12-13 year old "Young Eagles", I never sat in the left seat,
>>>>and as a matter-of-fact, very seldom touched the controls.
>>>>
>>>>The CFI who did my last Flight Review was amused when I flew the entire
>>>>flight including the instrument portion from the right seat of a C-172.
>>>>
>>>>Bob Moore
>>>
>>>
>>>you are missing the whole point of the post. the original poster
>>>stated that it was sightseeing flight and it was a passenger, zero
>>>experience, who would be in the left seat and the poster was not a
>>>rated instructor.
>>
>>Leaving aside the fact that the original poster made no such statement,
>>what do you suppose those Young Eagle flights were if not sightseeing?
>
>
>
> quote
>
> From: Anthony Acri )
> Subject: Right Seat Flying
>
> Date: 2001-12-11 03:21:43 PST
>
>
>
> Does anybody know if there is any regulations about flying from the right
> seat? Would like to flyi from the right seat while taking some people up
> for sightseeing. Have been flying from the right when I have been doing my
> instructors courses.
>
> Thanks
>
> end quote

Christ, you're getting as pigheaded or intellectually dishonest as
Tarver. Or both. Your quote is neither the original poster nor the
original post. That was:

> -------- Original Message --------
> From: Matt Whiting >
> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.ifr
> Subject: Right seat flying
> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 18:20:32 -0400
>
> This isn't an IFR related question, but I don't see an r.a group devoted
> to instruction. I just received the May/June issue of Aviator's Guide
> and they make an interesting claim on page 38. In the third paragraph
> they say that it is illegal for a non-instructor pilot to fly in the
> right seat with a non-pilot in the left seat. I've never thought about
> doing this, but never considered that it could be illegal. Can anyone
> here confirm this, preferably with a reference to the approriate FAR?
> I've never come across an FAR that addressed this before.
>
>
> Matt

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> This isn't an IFR related question, but I don't see an r.a group devoted
> to instruction.

r.a student devotes a considerable amount of discussion to instruction.

Many aircraft have a limitation prohibiting flying from the right seat with
a non-pilot or no pilot at the controls in the left seat unless you are
using the aircraft for instruction. You will find it in the POH or in the
type certification. It would be illegal to fly such an aircraft from the
right seat.

I don't have the manual in front of me, but I *think* this is even true of
the newer Cessna Skyhawks. I will have to check.

Anyway, many aircraft rental outfits also prohibit it.

Part 135 also has this to say (although this prohibition applies equally
well to any pilot seat):


§ 135.113 Passenger occupancy of pilot seat.
top
No certificate holder may operate an aircraft type certificated after
October 15, 1971, that has a passenger seating configuration, excluding any
pilot seat, of more than eight seats if any person other than the pilot in
command, a second in command, a company check airman, or an authorized
representative of the Administrator, the National Transportation Safety
Board, or the United States Postal Service occupies a pilot seat.

§ 135.115 Manipulation of controls.
top
No pilot in command may allow any person to manipulate the flight controls
of an aircraft during flight conducted under this part, nor may any person
manipulate the controls during such flight unless that person is-

(a) A pilot employed by the certificate holder and qualified in the
aircraft; or

(b) An authorized safety representative of the Administrator who has the
permission of the pilot in command, is qualified in the aircraft, and is
checking flight operations.

C J Campbell wrote:

> Many aircraft have a limitation prohibiting flying from the right seat with
> a non-pilot or no pilot at the controls in the left seat unless you are
> using the aircraft for instruction. You will find it in the POH or in the
> type certification. It would be illegal to fly such an aircraft from the
> right seat.
>
> I don't have the manual in front of me, but I *think* this is even true of
> the newer Cessna Skyhawks. I will have to check.

I checked the Limitations sections for the Cessna 172P, 172R, 182P, and
PA-28-161 -- none of them has an limitations concerning the right seat. The
only seat-related limitation is that the rear seats have to be empty for
operation in utility category. I also don't remember any seat limitation in
the TCDS for the 172 or the PA28, or in the insurance policy for my Warrior.

I'm not about to rush out and try it, though, at least not without an
instructor in the left seat (at least the first few times).


All the best,


DAvid

"C J Campbell" > wrote:

>Many aircraft have a limitation prohibiting flying from the right seat with
>a non-pilot or no pilot at the controls in the left seat unless you are
>using the aircraft for instruction


Really, which ones????????? What is your source for this information.
Or are you just an ABM?

And 135 does not apply here.

> wrote in message
...
> "C J Campbell" > wrote:
>
> >Many aircraft have a limitation prohibiting flying from the right seat
with
> >a non-pilot or no pilot at the controls in the left seat unless you are
> >using the aircraft for instruction
>
>
> Really, which ones????????? What is your source for this information.

Well, the manual for the Cessna 208 has this to say on page 2-12:

Flight Crew Limits

One pilot required in left seat.

I am fairly sure I have seen similar language in some other manuals.

> Or are you just an ABM?

I don't know ABM, unless you mean anti-ballistic missile. Perhaps you have
much more reason to be familiar with the term than have I.

>
> And 135 does not apply here.

It may be what the person who wrote the article in the Aviators Guide might
have been thinking of.